Mushroom Dad or Buddha in Disguise?
If you haven't yet seen the video of Stu eating his son, Ben's mushroom chocolate on accident it's time to join the 25 million + people that have (see link below)!
His lighthearted, go with the flow mentality is absolutely contagious. We couldn't wait to hear how Stu got to be such a good vibes family man and inspirational human being.
A professional international clown for 30+ years, long time meditator and mushroom eater, we know you'll love this episode with Stu Nemtin sharing his journey with us all.
Viral Mushroom Dad Reel #1: https://bit.ly/40k3Ze8
Viral Mushroom Dad Reel #2: https://bit.ly/3Ro5eVv
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Transcript
Eric
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Psilocybin Says I'm Eric Osborne, and.
::Courtney
I'm Courtney Rose. And this one is the episode with the mushroom Dad.
::Eric
It was such an honor. If you haven't seen the mushroom Dad check out the show notes. We'll have a link to the YouTube. Ah, I'm sorry. The Instagram video that went viral over 25 million views. He accidentally ate some of his son's mushroom chocolates and it is hilarious.
::Courtney
And if you've listened to this podcast at all, you know that we would never advise anyone to accidentally eat mushrooms that have psilocybin in them. But sometimes it happens. And thankfully, Stu, the mushroom dad was somewhat of an experienced mushroom eater, so he knew how to ride the waves. And in addition to that, a professional clown.
::Eric
Which I.
::Courtney
Think for.
::Stu
Now.
::Eric
He just slid right in and he just slid right in.
::Courtney
Don't worry. If you didn't know professional clown was still a thing like outside of the circus. It is. And it's a wonderful thing. And I so enjoyed this conversation with Stu. He's like a wealth of knowledge and joy and just really good vibes conversation. So I really hope that you all enjoy this one. And if you do give it a thumbs up, that really helps us a whole lot, helps people find our videos and subscribe to our channel.
::Courtney
If you're not already subscribed.
::Eric
That's it. Let's get on to this episode because it is a good one.
::Courtney
Yeah, enjoy it.
::Eric
All right, Stu, welcome to Psilocybin Says.
::Speaker 4
Thank you.
::Courtney
That is Stu. So good to have you here.
::Stu
Yeah, I made it. Yeah.
::Speaker 4
And that's showing up as a victory as far as I. Okay.
::Eric
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But I'm sure you have shown up in some much more challenging, interesting places than just this podcast.
::Speaker 4
Oh, yes.
::Stu
I have.
::Speaker 4
From the mountaintops of Alberta in a snowy condition, did the stories of Zambezi Lake and Zimbabwe. Yet? I've been making people laugh, I think, all over the world.
::Eric
I well.
::Speaker 4
Professionally and personally.
::Eric
Professionally and incidentally, you know, we're just now of course, we came across you and it I know millions of people must have had their day lightened up by that video. When I when I saw it, I just laughed for so long. And I can't believe we're sitting here talking to you now. This is so crazy.
::Stu
To think now.
::Courtney
I'm so I've shown that the infamous Mushroom Dad video just so many people now and they've shared it with so many people.
::Eric
So what you said last time we talked, you said it had like 12 million views or something.
::Speaker 4
Yeah, it's 25 million.
::Eric
25.
::Speaker 4
Million. And, you know, that has been the biggest joy for me is to read comments from similar comments from viewers of, Wow, you made my day or I was feeling so down and it just lifted my spirits and you reminded me of my dad and how much I missed him. And it was like an another chance to reconnect with my own dad and a memory away.
::Speaker 4
And oh, it's just been so gratifying. You know, for me, one of the ironies was, you know, I was a professional clown for 33 years, and I toured the world performing and making people laugh. And and here I do this one just natural.
::Stu
Little giggle fest that I guess.
::Speaker 4
Impacted more people in a way than I had my 35 years of clowning and performing.
::Courtney
So so it's the ones we put the least amount of effort into that.
::Stu
Oh, I stopped being. Yes.
::Speaker 4
You know, I work so.
::Stu
Hard to be Yeah. Keep a laugh. So many years and marketing.
::Speaker 4
Marketing and schlepping myself around the world.
::Stu
It is one little natural.
::Speaker 4
Thing that's by accident.
::Eric
No. Chocolate?
::Stu
Yes. An accidental chocolate. That's right. So what?
::Eric
What about your relationship, your experience with psilocybin magic mushrooms overall? Surely that wasn't your first encounter?
::Speaker 4
No, no. In my twenties, you know, growing up on the West Coast, I. That's when I first stumbled upon mushrooms with another friend who we were taking with a dance workshop together, which is like, for me, you know, a professional development workshop. After graduating from theater, theater, school. And she said, I'm going to the Fraser Valley where we're going to pick mushrooms.
::Speaker 4
And I thought, Oh, I love mushrooms, you know, just omelets.
::Stu
And I said, Oh, okay, go eat some.
::Speaker 4
And then get really silly. And so we went out to this beautiful farmland east of Vancouver, the Fraser Valley. And in October, you know, psilocybin was is growing all of these around these cow patties in farmer's field. And so people would make the pilgrimage out to the Fraser Valley and have a lovely day of walking around and and you'd spot psilocybin in fairy rings.
::Speaker 4
They would call them, you know, the way they grew in circular rings and I started eating some. And so that was my, my first experience and in my twenties. And then I, you just reminded me I was on Hawaii camping with a friend and this is many years ago up in Hilo. And at that time you could camp and set up a tent in these meadows overlooking the sea.
::Speaker 4
And there were we opened up our tent, little tent door, and there were mushrooms outside growing wild that she recognized in our tent door. And I remember eating a few of those and just lying back and watching the clouds, which look like palm trees kind of gotten by on the, you know, overhead. So that was that was when I was in my I guess in my thirties.
::Speaker 4
That was another encounter and really. Yeah. And then a few the random samplings over over the years and until I did this, you know, accidental munching with Benny, I hadn't been back to mushrooms for 20 years like a long time. Okay. A long time.
::Courtney
Now. So walk us through if you could, because I've been wondering every time I've watched that video, which is a lot now, so funny. Feels so good to laugh. Like, how did that happen? Did you like you just came across the chocolate bar.
::Stu
Like, Yeah.
::Speaker 4
Yeah, it's a it's a little embarrassing because I was foraging around in my son's fridge, which is usually nothing to eat. Pretty classic sort of son who always expects his parents to come and fill his fridge and then look for him and.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Speaker 4
My son, the Prince.
::Courtney
Shout out.
::Stu
At the thing.
::Eric
You're extra glad he wasn't on this record. You at this.
::Stu
Time, you're getting.
::Courtney
A real dirty.
::Stu
Prince. Then I was.
::Speaker 4
A bit sick. Both of our kids are living now in Los Angeles, in California, and we live up in the west coast of Canada. And so when we are driving down to go to the bar in the wintertime, we stop and, you know, visit with them. And now that we have a little grandson, our daughter has a baby boy and we we we stay with them and we do childcare help out.
::Speaker 4
And and so we move from his place to her place that and so we were staying at Ben's and I was hungry. And, you know, I wanted a little snack or something or and I opened his fridge and there was I thought they were artisanal chocolate bars, frankly, that he had on the side of his fridge. And and, you know, being in California where everything is artisanal and it costs a fortune for one chocolate that's like $10 or something to somebody hand delivers you on a rich hand glove anyways.
::Stu
So I said, Oh, but he's got a chocolate.
::Speaker 4
Bar in here. Oh, it looks like a really good chocolate bar because it was it was covered in gold foil. So I thought, Oh, this is really special. I'll just take one row, you know.
::Stu
And.
::Speaker 4
So I did that and it was that it was around 6:00 at night, actually, just before, you know, dinner, right before dinner or something like who knew when we were having dinner? And then about I didn't tell anybody. I thought, okay, I just have a little tied me over till we make dinner together. Whatever. And then about, I guess 40 minutes later or 45 minutes later and I oh, it was also some sort, this fridge called bitchin sauce.
::Courtney
Oh, yes, I'm familiar.
::Stu
Yeah. Yeah.
::Speaker 4
Like a hummus type of sauce. And I also took some of that, you know, and one carrot that I found and kind of kept it in and ate it. And then about 45 minutes later, I start to feel this tingling in all my lips. I thought, Damn, I've been poisoned. I think I've got food poisoning from this old sighted.
::Speaker 4
Probably been afraid since, you know, been touring for the last month or something.
::Stu
It's is.
::Speaker 4
Making tours. And so I didn't I just went to lie down. I thought.
::Stu
Oh, man, this must be just like food poisoning.
::Speaker 4
So I called out to Sally, and then, you know, from my bedroom fell.
::Stu
I think that sauce is off.
::Speaker 4
And Ben is fridge. And then he heard me. I well, from the other room and he said that. Did you have anything else in the fridge?
::Stu
I said, well confession.
::Speaker 4
You had some chocolate bar in the fridge. And he said, Dad, that's chocolate mushrooms in my fridge. I said, Oh that explains.
::Stu
That I'm starting to trip here. And, and.
::Speaker 4
And I also remember, well, you know, just kind of I caught myself before I knew what was happening. I start to see these geometric shapes, you know, behind my eyelids that these paint kind of, you know, as tacky and kind of shaped, sort of moving across my vision.
::Stu
I said, Oh.
::Speaker 4
Okay, that explains what's happening. And so then I got up because I was really, like tripping in a way I hadn't tripped in a while visually. And he said, and so he said he said, How much did you take? And well, I had a roll. You only supposed to have like one or two chocolate.
::Stu
And a whole fucking row. What I said I.
::Speaker 4
You know, I was hungry, I did artisanal chocolate.
::Eric
Was it labeled.
::Stu
What this whole thing.
::Courtney
It was on me. I would have eaten half the bar.
::Stu
A class.
::Speaker 4
Classic and and, and, and, and actually they were a little worried because I'm just such a lightweight when it comes to, you know, smoking pot or or or alcohol or anything. And but so they found my daughter just to tell her. And at ABA what's great she said, Bennie, you should just enjoy this. You've got this precious time now with Dad.
::Speaker 4
You should just enjoy it and be with it. And you know, you don't need to rush off to a hospital or anything. And so and so once I knew and that that the sauce was okay.
::Stu
It wasn't poisoned. I thought, okay.
::Speaker 4
And that's when I think, you know, the laughing started or I just felt this, you know, like sort of making fun of myself for my overexuberant appetite. And and I just started to laugh and then Sally was at the table, and then it was at the end of the table and I was at the other end and he just started to talk to me and interview me, kind of like, Well, how is it or What's it like?
::Speaker 4
And that's when said.
::Stu
Well, it's very funny. And I think like my favorite Scottish accent, Monty Python or something, spelt The Beatles. I had all of it in oh news, but I was.
::Speaker 4
So that kind of went into that, that flow of, you know, my, my reaction and, and you know, what was kind of a reassuring at that early point was that he said to me, Dad, you look so young right now. I'm in your laughing jag. And I think that that reminder just sort of I think it reassured me just in a way that this is a really healthy relief, what's going on right now.
::Speaker 4
And there is nothing to worry about. And, you know, in spite of all the the doubting that I have on, you know, who I you know, who I am or what I'm doing or not trusting myself, my own inner strength or groundedness, I, I, I knew it was just going to and it was going to be a wonderful experience.
::Speaker 4
And that, you know, I got around it by people that I love and care about. And and I and it was great to be with my son, but I don't get a chance to hang out with him very much because he's so busy in his work. And, you know, we're physically separated so far. I have always wanted to just I love hanging out with my kids and laughing with them.
::Speaker 4
They're both so funny. So this felt like a like a precious time that was was was happening. And I just at I can just let go and enjoy being a laughing fool. Right.
::Stu
So to that's possible.
::Courtney
Yeah it really is.
::Eric
Did it ever get weird.
::Speaker 4
It no it didn't it it the only well you know I really wanted to have some of the Thai food that they ended up ordering and bringing in, but I couldn't eat.
::Stu
Anything frustrating.
::Speaker 4
Part of is that my, you know, my stomach and my, my solar plexus area was was moving, was moving around a bit, was making itself known. So all I could really do is have tea. But I think as you saw that in the video, every time I went to have some tea, it's like, no.
::Stu
I can't really have any dried out. I remember it sort of, you know.
::Stu
Yeah, I just.
::Speaker 4
I just couldn't do my body was just, you know, doing little somersaults a bit.
::Courtney
Wow. What a treat to come out of a surprise mushroom trip and have a video be famous.
::Stu
Oh, yeah.
::Speaker 4
No kidding. Like, what a random act of it. Really? Like, I just keep going back to that ultimate irony of, you know, having worked so hard to reach people in my career, perform, sing, and all that it takes to mount a show and tour it and, you know, to set things up so I can make people laugh or entertain them.
::Speaker 4
It's like, you know, I my last show that I performed was called Clowning, a fiddling with the stories of my life. And and it it's a narrative of my my life as a performing artist and and, you know, clowning and traveling with my wife as, you know, playing music together in the Greek islands over the years. And it's like.
::Stu
There's so much effort and.
::Speaker 4
Doing that professionally and mounting a show, especially a solo show, it's so exhausted doing that. Yeah, yeah. And then here I was doing having this wonderful experience and then he was recording it. I had no of course, no concept. It would have the impact, but it just to be so ironic that 25 make 25 million people laugh and you know, my, my vision, you know, in my professional life was to unite the world in laughter.
::Speaker 4
Right. Do you know, give people like Emmett Kelly has this wonderful quote when he says, you know what, we're laughing at me. The audience really realize they they're laughing at themselves. And when they realize this, it gives them a sort of a spiritual second wind for going back into the battle of life or engaging in life. And so the comments reflect that to me and that, oh, man, you really lifted my day or you really gave me a vocation in some ways from aspects of my life that I'm struggling with or sad about or suffering in or however.
::Speaker 4
So it you know, I retired in many ways from clowning, even though I'm still doing film acting or TV acting and Victoria and and, you know, and still playing music with Sally. It's like Mexico has become our new Greece, you know, just sort of informally playing music and little venues and and entertaining people that are so. So I think like I'd been struggling with, look, what do I do now?
::Speaker 4
Like what's my life now? Or how do I make a difference for people I think becomes a continuing existential struggle that we all have. And I think, you know, perhaps men more than women, perhaps not. But my sense was, well, what do I do now? Like, it's just I just go and have fun and enjoy life. Is that it?
::Speaker 4
Or is there something else that's calling me? You know, there's something else that's calling me forward and and I didn't know how to define it anyways. Or in some ways I felt a lot of frustration about giving it voice. Like I knew there was something else still that I wanted to share. But there's professionally or personally and it's still around lightning people up or giving them still that, you know, virtual second wind.
::Speaker 4
And I saw that I could still do it with music and animate people, you know, playing Celtic music or blue or blues or whatever like that still lifted people's spirits. They missed clowning. I missed that aspect of my performance. I wasn't doing it any longer. And and so in some ways, there's a lingering sadness about having left that part of my career, which I did for so long and enjoyed so much.
::Speaker 4
And so having had this experience with Bennie recording it and and posting it, and at first I was nervous about him doing that. You know, I was afraid.
::Stu
Oh, it's going to damage my career. I never get into.
::Speaker 4
The States again and they'll stop.
::Stu
Me at the.
::Speaker 4
Border.
::Stu
That guy was laughing. Come on, that was you. Wasn't All right, So.
::Speaker 4
So what? You know, when we met, I said, Of course. Suppose that, you know, there's nothing to lose here. It's not like I. So that it's given me. It's interesting. It's given me a sense of completion and I did this action as okay, I can rest again or I can relax again about I'm still making a difference, you know, and, and even though like, you know, when, when you did that podcast about imposters, I was just reviewing one of your old podcasts about how we feel like we're all faking it or, or really, you know, what are we really doing?
::Speaker 4
I think that that whole thing about, you know, that struggle about, oh, do I make a difference? You know, is it important what I'm doing now in the world, now that I've retired and my work and all that dramatic suffering.
::Stu
And.
::Speaker 4
Stuff, getting into it? Sometimes this was a bit of a wake up call that I realized I could I could give myself a break and let myself rest on. This is what I this is what I've done now in this phase of my life. And it's made a huge difference. And I can just relax for about, you know, my impact on others.
::Speaker 4
Writing is scathing. Yeah, I've been talking all the time.
::Stu
Oh, I was just going, Oh.
::Eric
That was beautiful. I mean, and that alone, just giving ourselves a break is such a powerful message. We are so hard on ourselves from, you know, childhood all the way through. We have all these pressures and expectations of who we are supposed to be, and we will most likely never fully meet those expectations.
::Speaker 4
So absolutely, like I know, you know, pinpointing after having done so much personal exploration of what I felt like I wasn't enough, you know, or I know I could never make my mum happy, really after she lost my dad when I was so young. And, you know, because I took on, I've got to make her happy. I'm the baby and I, you know, it's my job.
::Stu
So it's like growing up.
::Speaker 4
You know, with that knowing you'll never be it. You'll never be powerful enough or whatever enough to do that. So I agree. Like we all carry those types of unrealistic, cruel taskmaster expectations. And and I I've definitely learned how to, you know, identify it and know when it's happening and can you manage it and and pull myself away from that reactive, debilitating headspace and it's still there in a way and you know create suffering but but not as long it doesn't have the grip on me that that it used to have.
::Speaker 4
And so and and I'm I'm more aware of smaller ways that I make a difference for people now in life like I'm more aware now it's enough to entertain and make my friends laugh or in small, you know, in small groups or it's on a daily basis. I much more present are much more conscious of when I lighten up somebody else's day or I give them a great or I make them laugh like I think I notice now much more of a myself throughout my day when I make a difference for people karmically and how valuable that is.
::Eric
Yeah, I can imagine. Did you? There was a couple of things that I want to touch on, but go ahead. I think you got something You also.
::Courtney
Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking about what a beautiful example that that is for your son, for Ben, and how, I mean, being able to see his dad just let go. I mean, to just end the mushroom chocolate example, just being able to surrender to that moment and just just let go and and still be in the midst of family like so many people might have felt like, I'm just going to go in a room and close the door and like, I don't want anybody to see me.
::Courtney
Like I'm just going to shut myself off because this is like a weird experience that I wasn't planning. But you like you you were with you stayed right there. You stayed with your family and like, let go with them.
::Eric
That was.
::Courtney
So beautiful.
::Eric
I got from the video overall that your family loves each other so much. It was so obvious just in the authentic laughter and like Courtney saying, Yeah, I mean, how many people do I know that? We know that if they accidentally ate a chocolate, they would have been mortified and hiding in a bedroom or not wanting to see their parents.
::Eric
And and just what a beautiful relationship that exhibits.
::Speaker 4
Wow. Oh, that's that is wonderful. We've I think through Sally's my wife's orientation, we've always strived to be able to be more authentic and vulnerable with each other at the young age. And and I think while that I'm just very moved by that that that that was your sense.
::Eric
You know it was it was very clear that that was one of the main reasons that I wanted to talk with you because, you know, family is so important to Courtney and I. I grew up in a very unhealthy family. There was a lot of unnecessary pressure and judgment. It was Catholic, you know, not that there's anything wrong with that, but the Catholic family, at least growing up, ah, we did a lot of guilt embedded in that.
::Eric
And Courtney's family has been very loving of each other, are very open to us and our psychedelic ways. And it's been it's been a major change for me that has actually required some significant adjustment in my level of comfort because I was I was uncomfortable around such a loving family. And now I can I can almost like have Spidey senses on, you know, when families love each other and where they don't, because I've have.
::Eric
But are you are you still hear me? Yeah, I can still hear. Okay. Yeah. Our camera for some reasons. Given a little trouble here. But anyway. Yeah. The ability to sense a a strong family unit is. Yeah, I'm starting to find that and see that in you also. Excuse me, but one of the things that I would love to just touch on that you brought up already is two or two things.
::Eric
Two things actually. First of all, you know, we've been so involved in the psychedelic world. We started the world's first psilocybin retreat in Jamaica years ago. I have been administering psilocybin for 20 plus years, have just very deeply immersed in this world. And the majority of I feel like the practitioners who are now coming in to psychedelics because they're being they're more accepted publicly, it's seen for therapeutic value, is there is still this kind of perspective of you've got to do the hard work to heal.
::Eric
And what I saw on your video and what I just heard you say about clowning and helping people laugh at you so they can laugh at themselves, is that's the that's the end game of the mushrooms for me. And my experience is that, you know, you can you can sit through all the trauma and you can work through all the suffering, and there is value in that.
::Eric
There's a place for that, not not to disregard it, but ultimately, like we get a choice whether we're going to enjoy this life or we're going to suffer through this life. And it can be a difficult choice to make. It takes the, you know, discipline and courage to be vulnerable, to laugh at ourselves and eventually laugh at, you know, this whole charade.
::Eric
But within the psychedelic community, there's this kind of an overtone of serious now seriousness now. And I fucking love that you brought the humor back out to it, because, I mean, you know, mushrooms are that they can be a hilarious ride. And we've I feel like we've forgotten that in many ways, as psychedelics become more mainstream and they're being strictly applied as therapy, I don't know if that makes sense.
::Speaker 4
Yes, it does. In fact, I'm familiar with, you know, some therapeutic practitioners here in Canada right now on in a conference like of psychedelics. And then therapeutic value is a doctor. And so yeah I I'm, I'm, I'm aware of that and the benefit of that whole movement that's using psychedelics to help people heal through trial drama. And I like I, I think we're really in line in Yeah.
::Speaker 4
In terms of the value of of the irreverent now yes able to make fun of themselves. It's like laughter is the ultimate victories far as I'm concerned.
::Stu
I guess also yes. Wants to all of that.
::Speaker 4
Shit and failure and stuff that you that happens to you and and if you can laugh about it, it really is the ultimate.
::Stu
I'm not dead yet. You know you haven't got.
::Speaker 4
The yet and and and and you know in my kind of theater background it also reminds me of this wonderful play that I, I once studied by Brendan Behan and Brendan Behan, an Irish playwright called the Quare Fellow, like the queer fellow and and it was it was set in a prison. And at one point the quare fellow is off to the gallows.
::Speaker 4
It's like, you know, he's on death row. And the scene is he's walking down the, you know, past all the other cells, fails to go to his death and they all start commenting on it like it's a horse race. And he's ahead by a minute. And then he goes, you know, ahead of the jail of us all.
::Stu
But but they're all picking up and.
::Speaker 4
They do this ongoing commentary in this darkest moment of his life. And they make it into this comic horse race, because really, what else is there to do? You have no control over what's happening to you in your life. As Viktor Frankl said, you know, who is who survives Auschwitz? All you have control of is your reaction. All you have control of is your reaction to the circumstances.
::Speaker 4
And here they were, these other oppressed, imprisoned convicts who chose to celebrate the victory of humor in the darkest moment of one of their friends lives. I just it just always stuck with me. That memory of this play and and really that art saves lives or that art can save lives. It's my friends bumper sticker said. And and I think yeah I mean I'm so grateful that I stumbled upon clowning.
::Speaker 4
I didn't intend to be a clown, you know, I was a theater actor and I took clowning as a professional development that, Oh, that'll be fun. Actually, that is why.
::Stu
I took it. I want to take that workshop now. Yeah, that was it.
::Speaker 4
And so improvizational, you know, making up in the moment, kibitzing with people as the clown does art, to invite people to play. That's really what the clown does. I invite people to play with him. And so I notice in my life I'm always looking at, you know, who has a sense? Do you have a sense of humor? Is there a connection there?
::Speaker 4
And like your borga I remember once that laughter is the shortest distance between two people. I love that quote. LAUGHTER is the shortest distance descent into people. That's the most intimate. That's interesting. You can laugh with somebody else, and that's where the humanity you know, you recognize your own humanity and vulnerability and all that stuff that goes on.
::Speaker 4
But you can still Aren't we ridiculous.
::Courtney
As a professional clown? In my life, I didn't know, but I did. But the more that you talk about clowning, I just didn't even know that this was really a profession, which I feel ignorant about. But until seeing you and hearing you talk about your profession, I just we didn't know it was a thing that clowning was, I think, which now it makes more sense that you would hire someone to come and help bring out the play and the fun and in the circumstance.
::Eric
But yeah, and it's not a birthday clown, right?
::Speaker 4
So it's a stage clown or it's a it's a clown. You would go see performing in the theater or at a festival in a in a tent show. It's really a you know, that all European origin of clowns were as performers in in the in the in the circus as they were they were the center. They were they were just filling up space while rigging was going up behind them for the trapeze.
::Speaker 4
They were characters to appear who came forward to to do a skit or a dramatic piece like putting up a ladder to climb to the moon, you know, to get closer to the moon. I mean, these very tender, pathos filled comic vignettes of us in all our heroic ridiculousness, failing magnificently silly. Like, that's to me, this is the essence of clowning, because you're up there and you fail.
::Stu
Yes, it again. This is again. Yeah.
::Courtney
This is an archetype that comes up in the group mushroom space and individual solo mushroom space in a group running the retreats in Jamaica for so long, you know, we saw all kinds of things. But this, this clown, it is so helpful for a group for someone to embody that clown.
::Eric
Well, and it's going to be I can't even the connection you just made for me in that quote, that laughter is the shortest distance between two people. So in my work very frequently, I have had mainly it's been people who have been trained or experienced in some kind of shamanic practice. My, my, my practice with mushrooms is very much a blend of this kind of shamanic therapeutic space.
::Eric
But many people have said that, you know, Eric, you are the you are the sacred clown. You know that, right? And yeah, you know, I've never conscientiously took on that. But knowing that that is very much a large part of the role I play and what, what is really touching me so deeply right now, I just want to share it because I know that there are people who listen, who have been a part of our ceremonies and just just because this is a valuable tool that I have found, you know, when I first started facilitating groups of 15, 20 people, and these are big spread out groups, often in the excuse me, and I started
::Eric
when I would have people, you know, maybe 300 feet or how far away from me that I wanted them to know that they were still safe. I developed this laugh that became a tool, and I would consciously use this laugh and still do to let people know, even though they're at a distance from me, that I'm right there with them and that everything's okay.
::Eric
And so that creating that immediate space between that bridge, between myself and the other to provide a level of security and and comfort and safety just like that just hit me like a ton of bricks. Thank you for sharing that.
::Stu
Oh.
::Speaker 4
Wonderful. Yeah. You know, as you say that I imagine you in that space and that you are really creating a lightness that is, like you said, comforting and letting people know that everything is okay. And even though we're on this whatever serious gathering together, there is a reassurance.
::Eric
I mean, you can just like, dig into so much deeper material when there is that lightness, right? I mean, you can explore past traumas and challenging events with with so much more ease if that humor is kind of there as a support, at least that's been you know, it's been an evolving experience. It wasn't always this way. Eventually, I learned to be able to laugh at myself and then to help hope to help other people do the same.
::Eric
And it's, you know, it sounds like you and I have very similar roles in ways, you know, yours is maybe a more formal, you know, more clowning, which is is is beautiful. I would love to hear you kind of talk about the evolution of your personal profession as a clown. Like you started it because it was fun. But I'm sure at some point you started to see the value that it was bringing to people and you began to take it more seriously.
::Eric
Can you talk a little bit about that?
::Speaker 4
Yeah, sure.
::Eric
Taking clowning more seriously.
::Stu
Yeah, right. Serious. I think some serious part. It reminds me of that old Woody.
::Speaker 4
Allen joke about the woman who goes to see a doctor, a psychiatrist. He said, You got to help My, my, my husband. He thinks he's a chicken and he's clucking and he's, you know, just sits on a chair all day and I don't know what what to do. And the doctor and and the duck says, Ma'am, don't worry, I can cure him.
::Speaker 4
But, you know, within a week she says, But we need the eggs.
::Stu
So.
::Speaker 4
So I think that what I what I discovered, first of all, the freedom in kibitzing with people in that workshop, that that intention that I did for, you know, the training program was just the freedom and basically coming out in front of people and being in the moment and responding to whatever wherever they were at. And that in a in a in a way that was comical and and that was it was so much fun and so thrilling because I was scared.
::Speaker 4
Like everybody was scared. You were in training, like, you know, you had to go out and you had to present a trick that you were going to do. And then the trick failed and then you had to go on this journey on stage or whatever to make the trick work in some ways that your audience would accept. Okay, great.
::Speaker 4
Yeah, you did it. And so it's perilous, right? Or it's scary because you're you know, you're really you're failing. You're up there and you're failing and you're like, falling flat on your face. And then you're going on this journey to make to rescue yourself and make this failure into a success. No matter how ridiculous it is, you're your way of making your trick work.
::Speaker 4
As long as you can do that, that's that you're you're you do it, you're success.
::Stu
And.
::Speaker 4
So, you know my my you know, my character that came out of that workshop was an aviator and his body is his airplane. So I put on this little leather helmet in the class, and all of a sudden I was this kind of Snoopy, like cavalier, saluting, you know, narcissistic pilot who was going to dazzle the audience with his flying skills and take them flying with him around the world.
::Speaker 4
And they're just going to be so odd. They'll be silent with all the time when there was no reaction from the audience. Okay, I can see you're silent with all I would make fun of.
::Stu
But nothing was going on.
::Speaker 4
They just loved me. And so I was always making fun of this grand illusion that I was, you know, the best thing since sliced bread. And if they didn't get it, I'll just do it again. I'll just do my trick again. And so that they'll get it. And so that was that discovery was very attractive because I was such a narcissistic kid growing up or young adult, you know, because I was the baby and I was just the center of attention in.
::Stu
My.
::Speaker 4
One of four brothers, etc.. And so here I could make fun of my grand grandness pomposity. And and that felt very powerful, very powerful. And and, and and that spontaneity of being able to keep it with people in the moment and make fun of myself right there in the moment. So freeing. And so I came out of that workshop workshop thinking I've got to do this.
::Speaker 4
You know what I'm not doing stage acting. I've got to perform this. My character, it's just so much fun and daring. People laugh at that joke that you're staring at it like he Ridiculous. Yes. And he knows he's ridiculous. So that there's that level meta level of understanding between the two. You I know I'm being ridiculous and I know nothing.
::Stu
I'm not doing anything impressive.
::Speaker 4
So my trick ended up I'm flying so fast right now it looks like I'm standing still and then I land on one wheel. That was the big trick, right? Well, all I do is I just lift up one leg.
::Stu
To the, you know, and that was the trick. And it was.
::Speaker 4
You know, it's just so gratifying to be able to do something so silly, but have the audience get how like it we're all ridiculous and we're all trying to pretend that we all know something. And I'm really going to impress you with how much I know. So it was just great to be able to do it, you know, make fun of myself for this, this obsessive where I have of, you know, do you think I'm really handsome or.
::Stu
I'm.
::Speaker 4
Good looking? Am I really? What do you think.
::Stu
A clown.
::Speaker 4
Can do? It's so wonderful because I can make fun of all the things in my life that I'm obsessed with, looking good, like we all have this thing of looking good. But so much of what we do is about not about not looking bad and looking.
::Stu
Good.
::Speaker 4
And so, you know, when I'm setting up to that, to go out with my house lighting in here. Oh, that's better. Yeah. I'm able to sort of move it the other way. There you go. There. That's my best side right there.
::Stu
You know, to make fun.
::Speaker 4
Of all that stuff is so great. And I recognize that. And, and and to improve and improvise like. Like I love just being spontaneous. Yes. You know, just quipping, you know, using my wit to just I can't help it. It sort of comes out. And I think that clowning me, the freedom to do that, I mean, I love acting in plays and, you know, playing character roles.
::Speaker 4
And that's really freeing, too, because you get to delve into so many aspects of who you are, aren't as an actor. But clowning is so precious because it's it's so you're so when you're so present, when you're a real state of grace, it seems to me you're that much in the moment and you're just up there on the stage big and whatever the audience gives you except whether they're laughing or they're not laughing or whether they're you just go with it.
::Speaker 4
And in the going with it, it transforms you transform the reaction into something positive. That's a very powerful state of being. I think they're very, very I want to honor the eccentric. There's a great clown from Georgia, from Georgia originally to do a martial arts presentation, and he was fighting with somebody, but he just went up there but with their resistance and they basically end up leading them all around the room as they tried to push him away.
::Speaker 4
And it's like, that's the essence of clowning. You go with whatever you get into going with it, you end up transforming it. So it's that it stops being a resistance to you and. It ends up being your assistant or your or your ally or something. You transform the negativity.
::Courtney
So this is amazing.
::Eric
Now I'm actually talking. I'm sitting yeah.
::Courtney
I'm right now I'm thinking, is one, do you give workshops?
::Stu
I know I'm thinking.
::Speaker 4
The same thing.
::Stu
What's new when.
::Courtney
If you don't Yeah you need to and know can you give workshops for our mushroom churches Because.
::Eric
Can you train trip sitters with me?
::Courtney
This is amazing.
::Stu
No, it's.
::Eric
I mean, everything that you're saying is exactly what I try to take in to the trip space. You have no idea what's coming at you. You've got to do your best to turn it into something positive, and you're only going to accomplish that by going with the flow of what it is.
::Speaker 4
Yes. Yeah, it's it's a it's a scary space to be in as the as the leader or as the guide. And yet what else is there to do next step? Just be with people, just to be present with people so that that result happens or that that that that that flow happens. That's yeah I, I, I remember that my ultimate goal really in clowning was just to get up on stage and not do anything, just to just react to the audience and just and, and because my best bit I would discover by accident in the moment when I was on stage like a scarf, you know, like at this long playing scarf at one time,
::Speaker 4
the scarf just left my hand and got pulled by one little kid who was holding my scarf. I thought.
::Stu
What with my scarf, go.
::Speaker 4
And the audience are dying laughing because, you know, they see me not knowing what the heck is going on here. And I think.
::Stu
What was much Oh.
::Speaker 4
There it is. So I went, grabbed it again, and the same thing happened. I thought, Oh my God, this a great comic.
::Stu
Bit because I'm doing.
::Speaker 4
It right. I discovered it by accident and and, and I went with it and ended up making it a very valuable aspect of the show. Like, you know, like what's going on?
::Stu
Everybody else knows what's going on except me.
::Eric
So I like this is a theme for you to.
::Stu
20.
::Eric
5 million people have just found enormous humor in your accidental stumbling about.
::Stu
BUZZER Yes.
::Eric
It's ah, accidental.
::Stu
I know, right?
::Eric
Not trying to stop trying.
::Stu
That's right.
::Courtney
Up to some real paranoia going on here for, you know, the universe is conspiring in your favor.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Speaker 4
That's right. It's like the world is out to do me good.
::Stu
Yeah, I.
::Speaker 4
Love that inverse paranoia or something. Yeah. Yeah.
::Courtney
So what. What did your kids think growing up with a dad as a professional clown? Like Was it. Did they embrace it? Were they annoyed by it? Like, I want to know?
::Stu
Yeah.
::Speaker 4
I think at the early age they loved it because I would in summer. In the summer, I think at an early age they loved it when they got to that, you know, junior high school age, they were a bit embarrassed. Right. That and I know they also felt very proud of me because, you know, we I took them took them with us, traveling all, you know, all over the world or whatever.
::Speaker 4
We did a little Oregon tour in the van.
::Stu
With my little South sister one year, and we traveled.
::Speaker 4
All over Oregon doing this, you know, tours and beautiful theaters and places. Ah, we went to Fiji and, you know, I took them to resorts where I clowned. And so I think they were impressed with the resourcefulness of what I could generate or I paid for a week of skiing by doing clown shows on the mountain for all of them.
::Speaker 4
And so they saw that and like this very affluent lifestyle that I.
::Stu
Could create in little small.
::Speaker 4
Sections because of using my skill. And Sally and I did the same thing, you know, when we played music, like we took them to Greece with Ben, it was one and a half. We took them back to Greece, to one of the Greek islands, and he was in his little beginning to play music in the bar. He'd be asleep and he'd wake up just as we finished the gig and, you know, start to play.
::Speaker 4
And then we took them both back, both kids, when they were 12 or 13 and and 11. And they basically served in this open air, you know, very comfortable patio. And I'm one of the little Greek islands. And we were playing music. So so I think they got that live. I think this all turn it lifestyle had a lot of riches to it and then so I think that they were very I think they were both very proud of me or that I was, you know, living this unconventional life.
::Speaker 4
And we lived in a very conventional neighborhood like Pleasantville in Victoria. It's very it's very leafy, treed character, home suburbia, you know, I felt like a double agent in some way, you know, when I was.
::Stu
Just.
::Speaker 4
A parent, you know, I wasn't really a sports dad. You know, I played violin when I was little. You know.
::Stu
And so I had to coach them. Oh, wow. I think Coach.
::Speaker 4
Benny and or, you know, and he was in Goldie and I'm up and one of the dads of the sideline sideline. And they said, okay, there has to be a shootout now because it's an even score. There's a shootout. And I remember falling to my knees and think, oh, no, a shootout.
::Stu
And I looked up to the coach and I said, What's a shootout?
::Speaker 4
Coach told this story of my son got the MVP award. Right. If you do it, you know? Well, I think that Ben succeeded in spite of his dad as.
::Stu
Far as a.
::Speaker 4
Certain aspect of it, there was a little bit of a bit embarrassing and recognizing that it was cool. It was cool that that, you know, that our dad was a clown and that it enabled us to have this very freeform and freed up lifestyle.
::Stu
Mm hmm. Yeah.
::Courtney
That's certainly knows now. I mean, Ben is showing you. Yeah. On social media so frequently now, it's so cool to see that.
::Speaker 4
And it gets yeah there's people who are following him because of that. They're interested in what you do and he's included us, which is, which is great. And, and he recently did a you know, a personal growth workshop intensive and ended up writing up a letter to Sally and thanking us and acknowledging us for what we brought to him as parents and how he's really, you know, how they say, you know, your kids can stand on your shoulders in their life to go.
::Speaker 4
And I was it was so moving. And he made me cry and and talking about the qualities that I have and the quality Sally have that he embraces, you know, in his work and his sharing of his journey as this, you know, golden boy, you know, athlete and scholar who had a had a fall, you know, emotionally and then recovered from that.
::Speaker 4
And, uh, and both of my kids have acknowledged have acknowledged that like the qualities that have given them their resilience and and resourcefulness and humor and an ability to to really connect with people in a very deep level. And, you know.
::Stu
I'm.
::Speaker 4
I'm just so moved by it by my kids and who they are in life and how that their friends respond to them as leaders. Um, so that I answer the question.
::Stu
Yeah. Yes I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Courtney
Yeah. That's so wonderful. I mean, I'm just thinking, gosh, I mean, we have four kids all together and two kids between Eric and I. And to imagine being at the stage in life that you're in now and having our kids speak of us and share our lives to to people that are following them, their friends, their peers and be proud of us.
::Courtney
Like to to envision that is like, oh, it almost brings me to tears thinking of that being a possibility for us and our kids.
::Eric
Yeah, it's like to me, it's not being proud of me.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Speaker 4
And, and, you know, and we had to do a, I had to do a lot of letting go in those in those teenage years and in those that was very challenging for me because it, it, it put me up against my own, you know, relationship with, with authority and being powerful. And why are my kids listening to me and, you know, all of those areas where I just felt like, you know, the the baby again, Like the baby that, you know, the the two youngest in the family were I didn't feel any any personal power.
::Speaker 4
And I was it's so confronting being a parent. And in those years of knowing, you know, what do I how do I how do I set boundaries and be effective and so being vulnerable is really one of the best tools I found in responding to those those challenges. And so I think that that is a constant thread that our kids I saw in both Sally and I'm, you know, now that I think of it, that I, I just tried to step away from that reactive, protective, frightened little boy still as a dad and and be more authentic of what was really going on and trust that they would get it.
::Speaker 4
And I think I was also I rescued myself by playing with them. I played with them a lot physically when I was young, like, you know, made it super, super, super. You know, I was like octopus man. And the kids were super feral or super boy. They tried to wrestle my arms away and fight, you know, like play games.
::Speaker 4
And I think those were really, really, really important aspects of parenting.
::Stu
In.
::Speaker 4
Being physical with your kids physically, affectionate, Like, that's that's the kind of home that I grew up with. A lot of physical affection and joking and and playing and I, I felt like that was my that's where where I showed up the best as a parent.
::Stu
You know, I may not know anything.
::Speaker 4
About sports coaching or other could of asked.
::Stu
Aspects of how to play.
::Speaker 4
I know how to play. I know how to do a little animated puppets with my.
::Stu
Back, you driving like.
::Speaker 4
Westphalia and they be doing their, you know, groaning at, you know, teenage disapproval thing. And I had these little finger puppets, a little giraffe and a little zebra that were stuck in the vents of the of our van. And I would put one on, just sort of.
::Stu
Go back behind.
::Speaker 4
And they couldn't help but laugh. It's got to break that, you know. Yeah. Tension or that judgmental thing that they're into. I think play is very, very powerful tool.
::Courtney
I think it's so easy to get caught up in the just the loop of life of, you know, stop that, don't do that. But you know like the hard boundaries and forget that you know ironically like play can break that that rigid ness and set us all free like the other night I was just so frustrated with our one year old and my our five year old.
::Courtney
And I, I just kept finding myself kind of reacting like you were saying and trying to be like the mom. And finally I just threw my hands in the air and just said, That's it. The only next thing I know to do is put on music, and if this doesn't work, we're all going to bed. And I put on music and I mean, it was the most fun that it went from like the hardest evening all week to the most fun evening we've had all month.
::Courtney
Like just dancing and swinging each other around.
::Stu
Oh.
::Courtney
Yes, I can totally relate.
::Speaker 4
That is so great. You know, because we just came from a bunch of grandparenting with my our one and a half year old, my daughter's little boy. And I can.
::Stu
I could.
::Speaker 4
I can so relate to that. It's like I, I just get so stuck in the frustration of why are you doing what I say?
::Stu
I've already eight times today. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. For God's sakes. It's like, yes, yeah, yeah, I guess you just. Yeah, that's my wife.
::Speaker 4
I do get to put on some music. Let's dance around the table. And all of a sudden everybody changes. Yeah, you also just wants to play. I mean, that's what my. Yeah, my daughter and my son Ella are such wonderful parents because they're always, even when they're feeding him, they're playing. They play with him, you know, making him laugh at the oh, you know, there's this, oh, Mr. Better he gets.
::Stu
Up here or.
::Speaker 4
Like, those kinds of things are oh, they're real icebreakers. And just they do so totally.
::Eric
So between you and your wife, you. It sounds like you're saying that you're your wife. You remember her name?
::Stu
Fallin. Sally. Yeah.
::Eric
Occasionally. Or sometimes brings you back into play mode, but you seem so playful yourself. Is this something that you all keep in balance or.
::Speaker 4
You just me on a good morning?
::Stu
Yeah, I'm.
::Speaker 4
I'm realizing I'm matching her. I am mentioning her because she is. She's such a great partner for me because she sees me in my worst uptight state. And and make no mistake, I do have them. And and, and, and it's able to. Where is the car? You know, where you know, Where's Conrad? You know, where's my car? You know?
::Speaker 4
Did Conrad leave the building or something or. Yeah, she, she reminds me.
::Eric
Is it the pilot? Is Conrad the pilot?
::Stu
Yeah.
::Courtney
Aviator.
::Stu
Yeah. Yes.
::Speaker 4
Yes. She is. She just is able to, you know, from her perspective. See, see, when I'm just in my tight, imprisoned, uptight space and and, and call it right. And and, and but, but in a way I think in a very loving way. I think in a way that doesn't shame me, which I think is very important. Yes.
::Speaker 4
I think we all have it protective, you know, sitting around being shamed or being made wrong, which is one of my big things, you know, misidentifying feedback for being made wrong. So I think she has a really wonderful way of, you know, as a as a therapist, you know, for many years, coaching is a very wonderful way, a soft way of of of of alerting me that I'm in that in that state.
::Courtney
So I've got a lot to learn from Sally.
::Stu
Oh, my gosh. Well, we're good years.
::Eric
Yeah, that's good.
::Courtney
Well, has it always been that way with you, too? I mean, I'm sure, like, has there been what's the evolution of that been like as she gotten better and softer with age?
::Stu
That that's a good question.
::Speaker 4
I think she had I think she has gotten better. And she was like that from the beginning, like the qualities that I was attracted to. Here she comes back from the doctor, the qualities that I was attracted to her most. I am.
::Stu
Wow.
::Speaker 4
I'm talking about do you remind do you put me back from the brink of uptight ness? And how do you think that.
::Courtney
Divine timing has?
::Speaker 4
Yeah, I think she did that from the beginning, but she had that quality because the quality that was attractive from the beginning was she was she seemed to me to be a powerful, attractive and soft woman. Like she had all of those qualities and vulnerable and I was really attracted and moved by that. I fell in love with, with, with her, you know, for for those qualities.
::Stu
Not that I wasn't firm because. I am all right. Yeah.
::Courtney
I see Sally. It's a balance.
::Stu
Yeah, it's off balance. Yeah, that's what I'm working on. I can just hear a little bit.
::Speaker 4
Yeah. So.
::Stu
Yeah, he's. He's an artist, right? So there's. There's more of a, a bit more of a swing and sometimes he goes off well regularly into creative daydreaming land. And so I think his propensity for humor can be pulled back in easily because you know, that's kind of his, his practice and natural state. And when you have a combination of healthy practices and, you know, an appreciation for a calmer or more joyful life, I think, you know, that's that's a good that's a good combo.
::Stu
But without the practice, you know, we know that practice doesn't make perfect, but we know that practice can make more permanent or more accessible ways of of managing because life can crazy and the body doesn't know the difference between real or imagined stressed. And we need to have practiced ways of doing it. And I just read a thing about dancing with a from a travel writer who said in these times of, you know, more travel and a desire to have more, more fun, just getting away and dancing is so great, like a really good party no matter how old you are, because we've been missing that these last few years in particular.
::Stu
So we don't have to have a, you know, a huge stressful life. But everything has, you know, an impact on on how we feel mentally, spiritually, physically. Right. So that's what.
::Speaker 4
We were just talking.
::Stu
About. I have these on, by the way, because I want to look like a movie star, but I also had a little operation on my eyes, so.
::Courtney
Oh, I hope you're feeling better soon.
::Stu
I it was very it was positive. So thank you.
::Speaker 4
You know, the irony is we were just talking about the reaction to a one year old baby, which they have at heart and the frustration. And you ended up putting on music and they had this great evening of dancing with their kids.
::Stu
Oh, great. Which is. Yeah.
::Speaker 4
That's so timely that.
::Courtney
Yeah, which was informed. I did that because Eric and I went out dancing a couple of nights before that and it I feel like it it took off like £1,000 from our shoulders. We danced for hours and I thought, okay, dancing helped me a couple of nights ago a lot. So maybe it's the way tonight with the kids.
::Courtney
And it was.
::Eric
I'm curious.
::Stu
Too. And did you tell them, Stewie, that the kids were driving us crazy? I'd go and put on the bear naked lady, The Canadian? Yeah. And.
::Speaker 4
You know, Sally would do the same thing.
::Stu
This. This is me and grade nine, baby. This is me in grade nine. So everyone's got a dance is okay. Now sit down and eat your flippin better.
::Courtney
Yeah there's the firmness coming on in.
::Stu
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
::Speaker 4
Oh, I'm much more of a space case than. Yeah.
::Eric
Well, that's what I want. I wanted to ask you because you are an artist, and I, you know, I'm an artist as well and very various mediums. And have I have found myself, you know, in some some pretty tumultuous emotional states. Over the years, I have struggled with some pretty severe depression and also some very, you know, powerful periods of elation.
::Eric
And I'm curious with you, do you find yourself swinging back and forth between these emotional states and how if so, how have you what kinds of practices have you developed to maintain more stability?
::Speaker 4
That's a great question.
::Stu
And I'm going to let you go.
::Eric
Thank you for joining me.
::Courtney
Hope to see you later. Another time.
::Speaker 4
That's a great. Yeah, very good question. Yeah, I find I'm I'm moody. I'm really I'm moody, but I'm more more balanced that in my earlier years as a performing artist. And one thing that really helped me because because inevitably, you know, when you're at the center of all of this attention and admiration and and then it's not there anymore, there's just the inevitable letdown or this, you know.
::Stu
What is it? Why doesn't the world love me like this, all the time? But how disappointed.
::Speaker 4
And so that's a syndrome. That's a common syndrome. I think, for artists who who how do they come down from a show or how do they what's the the rest of your life is dull compared to what it's like to be on stage, the focus of attention and how do you pivot or how do you transition and all of that stuff.
::Speaker 4
And yeah, I meditation really helped me a lot when I started meditating and we and we Sally was meditating before me and then I joined her in that practice and that just really that me helped me touch down to a very quiet, buoyant state of being. When I'd come out of meditation, there would be a lightness and and like a happiness that, that I would feel a calmness.
::Speaker 4
And so when I found myself going to like a dark place in between performance is ah, between work, I would, I would make sure that I would, I would meditate regularly too, because, you know, it's interesting about, you know, what you believe around thinking and how that affects your mood. It's like the idea that this is it's supposed to be like this all the time.
::Speaker 4
You know, the world supposed to love me this much all the time.
::Stu
If I'm depressed.
::Speaker 4
Because it doesn't, how dare they not love, you know, angry. How dare the world not love, be like this all the time and recognize how great I am and what's the matter? And so, like all of those thoughts which create frustration and annoyance and unhappiness are they're just thoughts. It's not necessarily the truth. And that's a big one for me that I, you know, discovered in my various therapeutic journeys.
::Speaker 4
It's like there's there there's the world and the circumstances of your life and there's your reaction.
::Stu
And you can.
::Speaker 4
Step back from this reaction that you find yourself going into. You can just witness or see, Oh, there I go again. I know. And by going to that dark place where I don't nothing makes any sense. And and I hate my life and I you know, this and that. And it's just that just thoughts and they're not necessary li the truth.
::Speaker 4
So when I question that kind of that that kind of thought process that's bumming me out, that gives me some freedom.
::Courtney
Mm hmm. When you meditate, do you.
::Stu
Do you.
::Courtney
Just sit in silence or is there like a guided meditation you like?
::Speaker 4
Yeah. We've just ended up, you know, with them doing a like a team meditation. It is a temptation you imitation where it's a specific mantra that I'm saying quietly and in my, you know, in my head. And then eventually what happens is I get very quiet. I get below all the the that the mind thinking and assessing and evaluating and planning and and I get below that and it's like get to a very quiet place where there's no none of that chatter is going on and that's the access to me to that the the the the positive impact of that in your head and on your brain.
::Speaker 4
And it's very restful and regenerative and and and and there's a certain I finding a certain quiet buoyancy that comes as a result of that and and it just gives me a quiet happiness that that starts to sustain me. You you know more and more until I do that that kind of meditation for 20 minutes and, and Sally and I do it together when you know, when we integrate, it's more powerful doing it with somebody else or you know with more than one person.
::Speaker 4
And I just find it very calming. I also find like when you in terms of an artist, you know, that I'm anxious.
::Stu
Or.
::Speaker 4
You know, speak the youngest and being worried that we didn't have enough money because my dad was my dad when we were young. And so money was a thing, right? An anxiety thing. And so I noticed that I have a certain worrying status do the worrier and worrying. And so that meditating really helps with all of that fearful thoughts in my head about about worrying.
::Speaker 4
And it's really made up. Yeah, it's really been a very helpful way of calming myself because I also see all the worrying as it's illusion.
::Stu
Yes, basically.
::Speaker 4
My art, my tenet now our tenet now is all is well.
::Eric
Are you and Abraham Arden, are you an Abraham Lincoln Abraham because.
::Stu
Listener No.
::Eric
Because this sounds like so much of what Abraham Hicks teaches anyway. No.
::Speaker 4
I got that from that kind of, you know, wisdom from another, you know, a therapeutic friend of mine, you know, who was in a a group of us was actually one of the owners of one of our, ah, places here in Loretto that we bought with years ago. And, and he said when he asked the leader of this workshop that he was taking it, you know, what's the basic, what's your basic what's the bottom line here.
::Speaker 4
He said basically the bottom line is for me all is well, no matter what shit is going on or.
::Stu
Basically all is.
::Speaker 4
Well. And, and I think, yeah, all is well, everything is okay. Ah, it's going to be okay. You know, everything will be fine.
::Eric
It's tough. I mean, everything is everything.
::Speaker 4
Business is perfect as it is. No matter how much I try to be more perfect or more popular or more funny or more rich or but ever. Basically it's right now it's just fine.
::Stu
This is great. Just breathe. Just keep breathing. Just breathing. Just keep.
::Speaker 4
Breathing.
::Courtney
And now.
::Speaker 4
Everything is fine.
::Courtney
When you go stay at Ben's house and you know he's got his fridge stocked with the mushroom chocolate for you, I'm sure. Now you have that mantra.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Courtney
After you eat around one or two of.
::Eric
The mushrooms and everything is okay.
::Speaker 4
I mean, okay. And that was it, as I knew everything was okay when I after ate the mushroom, even though they were worried that I ate too much. I guess.
::Stu
You know.
::Speaker 4
I can take of myself. I know how to take care of myself. I know how to. That's also that, you know, I think a very positive would have a good of bringing yourself back to your trusting. Yes. Trusting your own. Looking after yourself.
::Stu
I.
::Eric
I love the phrase that you used earlier on about a spiritual second wind. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your perspective on spirituality.
::Speaker 4
I'm sure. Well, I grew up, you know, in a traditional like it would be like a conservative, not an Orthodox Jewish upbringing in that we you know, we went to synagogue and I am in a small town and and it was a very and so what we're but became most important were the celebrations because it was always around eating really good food, you know, festive dinners.
::Speaker 4
And so it was and family gathering and cousins and everyone coming together. And so, you know, my my religious upbringing was really centered family celebrations and reunions and and and food and and singing. Singing was also, you know, became important and and and and with our kids, we were culturally Jewish, I think, in that we introduced that to, you know, the major Hanukkah and Passover and the holidays.
::Speaker 4
They had great stories about them. But we would clown them up as they were growing up and make make them more our own of telling those stories, you know, at that holiday time and adding music and and making up poems or songs and it was just a way of making it not so dull and liturgical and, and, and then I stay connected, I guess, to that sort of cultural faith by, you know, I created a show about the story of Esther as one of my one of my theater shows with big giant puppets and, you know, playing all the characters.
::Speaker 4
And I'm like, Klezmer meets clown, you know, telling the story of this gig. I got the show and I.
::Stu
Realized I really.
::Speaker 4
Ended up doing that show for my mother, You know, after she when she died, it was like it was really a an expression of being very proud of my cultural upbringing. But in terms of today and now, my spiritualism has moved more toward to a, I would say almost like a Buddhist openness about acceptance and tolerance rather needing to be a certain way of doing things.
::Speaker 4
I don't really follow that. Oh, I have to do Passover every year now in order for me to continue to be worthwhile for my cultural upbringing or what's expected. And I've, I've moved more towards this, more of a yeah, of a spiritualism rather than a religious dogma based way of being in the world or belief system. I don't believe that just one way or that we're the best or, you know, we're that that idea or that any one is got the answer or the truth.
::Speaker 4
And I think because we we make.
::Stu
It all up and we make it out that, you know.
::Courtney
We're talking it's not true.
::Speaker 4
Make up what works best for you, but don't hurt anybody. So that's kind of become more of my philosophy, you know you don't have to dress in black in the middle of summer and wear long black stockings and a fur.
::Stu
Hat to be observant or you don't have to.
::Speaker 4
Dress like you're in the: ::Stu
Really?
::Speaker 4
Not necessary. That's good. Like the irreverent clown keeps coming, you know, services. I come upon dogma or something that feels too rigid. I just reacting that's what I see is rigidity. And so I veer towards that spiritualism that is more open and accepting however you want to connect, you know, in the world. What was it in Rousseau that Rousseau said, you said, you know, nature is my church or, you know, that idea.
::Speaker 4
I'm more of a, I'm more of a I connect to the divine, but I'm outside on my bike or cycling or being by the sea in Victoria or on a kayak or like to me, I think as I grew older, my is more connected to the fantastic, wonderful wonderment of of the world, of the natural world. Or also when I was clowning, you know, that wonderful openness that kids have their face is just is this pure, open, innocent, loving like that moves me today more than sitting in a congregation in chat or chanting or something.
::Speaker 4
I don't know.
::Stu
I'm I'm much more.
::Speaker 4
Attentive, I think, to just Yeah, what moves me in life to be connected to love, You know, divine love. Ah, love like a love is all there is. So you know, however it shows up that's great.
::Stu
And I'll, I'll.
::Speaker 4
I'll have some of that.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Courtney
Yeah, me.
::Stu
Too. Good.
::Courtney
Two for me.
::Stu
Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. And chocolate and dark chocolate. Okay.
::Eric
Aren't they synonymous Are they. They go together.
::Courtney
Maybe some mushrooms too.
::Stu
And they, you know.
::Eric
That speaks so much to what we really try to communicate in our community as well as that this is it's a personal connection and a personal understanding with whatever you call that thing that we can't describe, that we're just doing our best to try to find some kind of words that help us express how we feel about this mystery, this inexpressible inexplicably beautiful mystery at every level.
::Eric
So, yeah. Oh, man, this.
::Courtney
Has been such a wonderful conversation. We've shared quite a few wonderful philosophies and things that I hope our listeners will be inspired by. I'm confident they'll be.
::Eric
Oh, yeah. Well, even if they don't, I know that if we never communicate ever again, I know that this deeper understanding of of the clown and the role that the clown plays and my own kind of natural taking on of that role in this space, I understand it on a deeper level now and can in and we'll engage with it on a more conscious level in my daily life.
::Eric
And you know, that's so much of what the mushroom are about. It's not this experience had in a vacuum of time, some, you know, some where somehow it's something that we can bring into our lives and make it part of every day. And that that laughter is, oh, God, it is the best medicine, it is the greatest therapy.
::Eric
And we can make the choice to find the lightness in every subject. You know? I mean, even I don't know, it's been so incredible. There have been instances where there's one instance customer, a man right now where we were in Jamaica, there was a massive hurricane going through the Bahamas and we were sitting on the beach getting going into a mushroom trip.
::Eric
ere arrested for mushrooms in: ::Eric
And and at that time I couldn't see the beauty in it. But I can look back now and that there was so much beauty in that experience, even in the the weird conversations and encounters that I had and, you know, in jail with people that I would have never experienced otherwise. And so just to be able to take that that impromptu, that playful, that whatever's happening is like this is food for my growth, this is food for my entertainment and joy.
::Eric
And that this perspective of paranoia that Courtney and I tried to remind each other of is that life is always working out for me. It's all good, even when it's not tastic.
::Stu
Yeah, yeah.
::Courtney
Before. Well, before we wrap up.
::Eric
Yeah, we. We didn't warn you. We didn't warn you about this one.
::Courtney
We always we always ask all our guests on our podcast what does psilocybin say to you? Psilocybin.
::Speaker 4
Obviously what it says to me.
::Stu
Ha.
::Speaker 4
Well, I think it says to me, Here's your best self. I think that's what it says. We're going to give you access to your the celebrate of best of you. Yeah.
::Stu
Beautiful. That's beautiful.
::Eric
And you can carry that message every day in your life and share that with others as you are. You know, you already have done so much. Yeah. Yeah, I got. I got a high regard for you. Do I? Thank you.
::Speaker 4
Thank you, God.
::Courtney
Yeah. Thank you for bringing your lightness and to every day and all the people you come across and for raising your kids how you have been. I don't know much about your daughter, but, ah, anything about her. But seeing Ben and his bucket list book and hearing him talk and share his vulnerability in the short amount of time I've been following on social media because of you, because someone shared that video with us of you is really inspiring.
::Courtney
And you just have clearly had a huge role in in him being the way he is. So thank you for even doing all that.
::Speaker 4
You know, just quickly mentioned my daughter works for a meditation online app company. Oh, perfect. And she never used to be anything to do with meditation until she started this work. And it's.
::Stu
Wow.
::Speaker 4
Work. So I'm she's a she's a wonderful a wonderful force.
::Stu
Yeah.
::Speaker 4
I don't want to be st with. Oh, nice And patient in Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh that's.
::Stu
So awesome. That's so cool.
::Courtney
Yeah. I would love to have her information if you email that to us a little bit. See her.
::Eric
Got it. This this just to me again highlights just how important loving parents are so it's so crucial and you know we see we see so many broken homes. I come from one I've had my own divorces and and challenges there and it it really just kind of reemphasize is this conversation that Courtney and I continue to have about being our best selves so that we can be an inspiration to our children and being continually loving to each other and playful with each other and not taking things so seriously and not getting, you know, bent out of shape and getting off on our own thought tangents of, you know, that we've made up in our
::Eric
head and just relax and enjoy this ride. We don't know how long it's going to last. The people that were with are beautiful and deserving of love and freedom and appreciation, and you fucking embody that, man. Ah, your your whole vibe. Like, that's my world is I live in a world of energy. And seeing you on that video and the subsequent videos of you and your wife has as it's been inspirational to me.
::Eric
So I know so many others. So thank you so much.
::Speaker 4
Oh, thank you for sharing that.
::Eric
And the beauty of it is you're just being like just in being you get to be inspiration. That's a fucking lesson.
::Stu
Yeah, absolutely.
::Eric
I could go on. Yeah. Thanks so much for your time. You have been so generous already.
::Stu
Okay, guys. Well, no.
::Courtney
Thank.
::Stu
You. In person. That. That would be great.
::Courtney
Please. Incredible. Let's keep in touch.
::Eric
Well, I'll stay in touch. And if you're traveling, we're traveling. I'm sure we can make that happen. Yeah.
::Stu
Okay. Wonderful. All right.
::Courtney
Okay, let's do.
